You have how many open tabs?! (Friends)
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
1hr 33min Feb 4, 2024
We’re taking you to the hallway track at THAT Conference in Austin TX, where we have 3 fun conversations: one with our old friend Nick Nisi from JS Party, one with our new(ish) friend Amy Dutton from CompressedFM (who has been a guest on JS Party of late) & one with our brand new friend / long-time listener Andres Pineda from the Dominican Republic.
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Featuring:
- Amy Dutton – GitHub, X
- Andres Pineda – Website, GitHub, X
- Jerod Santo – Website, GitHub, LinkedIn, Mastodon, X
- Adam Stacoviak – Website, GitHub, LinkedIn, Mastodon, X
- Nick Nisi – Website, GitHub, Bluesky, Mastodon, X
Show Notes:
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Jerod Santo
It's hard because you can't hear yourself, so you're not sure...
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, just --
Nick Nisi
I can see my waveform...
Jerod Santo
There you go.
Adam Stacoviak
You're solid. We've done this before, it's fine-tuned exactly where it needs to be.
Nick Nisi
Nice.
Jerod Santo
That's like being able to read the matrix, you know? "I can see my waveform..." \[laughter\] This guy is a pro. He knows what his waveform looks like.
Adam Stacoviak
I was thinking a potential backup if Danny said no was to talk about browsers on the stage.
Jerod Santo
With Nick?
Adam Stacoviak
With Nick, yeah. Because - well, going back to the friends list, it's a popular episode in recent times. And this is a polyglot conference, and I figured "Well, browsers are pretty important at a conference like this, so let's talk browsers." I have not played with Arc since that conversation.
Nick Nisi
Same.
Adam Stacoviak
I'm strictly a Safari person.
Jerod Santo
You went back?
Nick Nisi
Yeah, I did.
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, man...
Jerod Santo
We're all back on Safari. I'm not using Arc.
Adam Stacoviak
Okay...
Nick Nisi
But today I just did download Arc Search on my phone.
Jerod Santo
I heard about it.
Nick Nisi
I just wanted to check it out. I don't know even what it is...
Jerod Santo
What is it?
Nick Nisi
I have no idea.
Jerod Santo
Oh, okay.
Nick Nisi
It's from Arc. I get emails from them.
Jerod Santo
Arc Search. Yeah, I got the email, but I was too busy to read it.
Adam Stacoviak
Wasn't there some legislation recently with Safari, and Apple, and browsers?
Nick Nisi
Oh, yes. Yes.
Adam Stacoviak
I saw a headline, I didn't hear the details.
Nick Nisi
It's wild...
Adam Stacoviak
Okay...
Jerod Santo
Do you know the details?
Nick Nisi
I know some of the details, I think... So in the EU they will allow third-party engines to be on the phone, and they will present an option --
Jerod Santo
For a default browser?
Nick Nisi
Yeah. For a default browser. So you do not have to pick Safari anymore, which... I'm torn. a) I'm in the US, so it doesn't matter... I don't like that. I don't like that all of this stuff came out and it's so different between the EU and the US. It just feels like they're just being so petty, you know?
Jerod Santo
They are.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I wonder if they're leading the way --
Jerod Santo
Malicious compliance is what they're calling it...
Nick Nisi
Oh, for sure.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I just wonder if they're leading the way, in a way. Because it's happening there, will it be essentially absorbed elsewhere, because it's --
Jerod Santo
Not according to Apple.
Adam Stacoviak
No? Okay...
Nick Nisi
You'd hope so, but...
Jerod Santo
I think we'd have to pass similar legislation in the US for them to do it.
Nick Nisi
Won't happen.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, which won't happen.
Adam Stacoviak
My biggest concern though is the amount of tabs. I'm at 500.
Jerod Santo
What do you mean?
Adam Stacoviak
I have 500 tabs open on Safari...
Nick Nisi
There' a red X, you can just click that... \[laughter\]
Jerod Santo
This is a concern, but not for the browser wars. For your life.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I want more than 500 tabs, okay?
Jerod Santo
What?! \[laughs\]
Nick Nisi
Is there a limit? You've found the limit?
Adam Stacoviak
I'm at my limit, yes.
Nick Nisi
Wow!!
Adam Stacoviak
When I go to New Tab now, I cannot New Tab past 500.
Jerod Santo
In Safari?
Adam Stacoviak
Yes.
Nick Nisi
Can you create a new tab group, or profile, and then go again?
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I haven't tried that. Maybe...
Nick Nisi
There you go.
Jerod Santo
I'm pretty sure that's a feature, Adam. 500 tabs is ridiculous.
Adam Stacoviak
Sorry.
Jerod Santo
How do you expect them to sync all those between browsers and everything?
Adam Stacoviak
They just... They just do.
Jerod Santo
Do you have no --
Adam Stacoviak
It's like recipes in there, and stuff like that... So it's some to-do's that I just have not done.
Jerod Santo
That's a lot of to-do's.
Adam Stacoviak
Sorry. I mean...
Jerod Santo
That's like \[unintelligible 00:04:43.16\] You're at tab 500.
Adam Stacoviak
Tab 500.
Nick Nisi
Well, if you ordered a Vision Pro, I just hope you got the high-end model, not the base storage, because...
Jerod Santo
Yeah, you're gonna need some RAM on that sucker...
Adam Stacoviak
No Vision Pro for me.
Jerod Santo
...to hold those things in.
Adam Stacoviak
I think we talked about Ready Player One and Ready Player Two. Did you listen to or read those books?
Nick Nisi
Yes, I listened to both of them.
Adam Stacoviak
Okay, so were you thinking like the ONI headset from Ready Player Two? The ONI... They called it the ONI headset.
Jerod Santo
With the Vision Pro you mean? comparing it to the Vision Pro?
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. So the book is called Ready Player One, Ready Player Two. It's a movie as well. And Ready Player Two - I don't want to spoil it, but it goes beyond this haptic wares they would do to get into the VR, into the Oasis, . And there's a revelation in the second book that essentially takes that to one more layer. And I don't want to ruin it, so I'm gonna be vague just because of that, if people are listening. Screw it. Spoiler alert, okay?
Jerod Santo
I don't wanna hear it... I don't wanna hear it...
Adam Stacoviak
It goes straight up -- how would you describe it? Like you're in it. It's not VR anymore, it's like connected to your brain... And they call it the ONI headset, but they just really call it ONI. So I feel like the Apple Vision Pro is like the precursor to our fiction turned reality, I suppose... You know what I mean? it's going to influence that. this is like the original Oasis headset moment. I'm waiting for the ONI headset.
Nick Nisi
\[00:06:11.16\] Oh, yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
You know what I'm saying? You can unplug now. You're good. Jerod was plugging his ears. He don't wanna ruin it.
Jerod Santo
Alright.
Adam Stacoviak
You probably won't even listen to or read the stories though...
Jerod Santo
No... I just like to not be spoiled.
Adam Stacoviak
Okay, don't be spoiled.
Nick Nisi
I'm excited for that, and I think that there's -- this is the precursor to a lot of things, . This is the worst version of the headset that's ever going to be produced... And if you look at all of the rumors that were coming out of like \[unintelligible 00:06:33.20\] and stuff before, they were shooting for glasses, and this is the compromise, because they can't do the technology.
Jerod Santo
They can't get it done.
Adam Stacoviak
It is so heavy though. I see people wearing it, and I'm just thinking like -- I'm not a VR guy necessarily, but I just think, it has to change its form factor for it to be having mass adoption.
Nick Nisi
For sure.
Adam Stacoviak
Battery life, obviously... who wants to wear --
Jerod Santo
A battery pack in your pocket?
Adam Stacoviak
Well anything that heavy on your head, for that long --
Jerod Santo
But the battery actually doesn't go on the head, right?
Nick Nisi
Yeah. They'll sell you a $50 clip, so you can clip it to your belt, or something...
Adam Stacoviak
I bet they would.
Jerod Santo
Those are cool.
Adam Stacoviak
What about the cable to get to the clip? 200 bucks.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, exactly.
Nick Nisi
It's 200 bucks for a travel case...
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah...
Jerod Santo
I didn't even price it out this time. I just skipped it altogether.
Nick Nisi
But we've got things like that, we've got the Neuralink, which I will be the last person on Earth to sign up for... And Disney just had that thing with the HoloTile floo.
Jerod Santo
Oh, that was cool.
Adam Stacoviak
I saw that. That is really cool.
Nick Nisi
But that was in Ready Player One, too. in the movie at least.
Adam Stacoviak
Right. In that case, it was kinda like a treadmill though, where their version was like small spheres, balls...
Jerod Santo
You could walk in any direction and there's -- are they balls? They're like -- they look like ball bearings or something, but they're not metal... And they'll move, and they'll keep you roughly in the center of this little patch
of balls.
Adam Stacoviak
I wonder if they just like put ceramic balls, which - ball bearings that are ceramic are the most expensive and the best metal. So that will hold a human's weight if they run or walk... And they just like lube them, and like put them in a space that they fit perfectly.
Nick Nisi
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
Is that the science? And there's something beneath it that sort of like has sensors...
Jerod Santo
I don't know.
Nick Nisi
It's cool, but I don't see that being a practical thing that I install in my house.
Jerod Santo
It's not immersive either. I can't say, because I haven't actually experienced it, but it looks like -- similar to like when you're on a treadmill and they'll put those videos in front of you, where it's like "You're actually in the Himalayas right now", and it's like "No, dude. I'm on a treadmill."
Nick Nisi
Well, the good thing that all of this tech has working for it is like -- you've seen the the pictures? Apple tried to take the pictures, and they only sent out "Okay, these are the pictures we're gonna let you actually post."
Jerod Santo
Yeah, that was weird.
Nick Nisi
And not one of them looks cool. I'm sorry. I want a Vision Pro. I definitely do. But they looked really dumb. I'll just say that. On your head. you look dumb. And once you lose that little amount of dignity, then I'm totally fine getting one of those things that my kids would have when they were little...
Adam Stacoviak
All-in, right? All-in.
Nick Nisi
Yeah. I'll just have like a diaper kind of attached to the ceiling, that's holding me up, and I can just kind of --
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\] That's a picture I wanna see...
Adam Stacoviak
Well, if you watch Ready Player One, it's a lot like that, right?
Nick Nisi
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
The move Ready Player One - it's very predictive in terms of where we might go, or what does work... Because they have hanging -- they have haptic suits, where you have literally in your... Well, they call it the crotch fiber inlay, or something like that... There's a joke in the movie...
Jerod Santo
That's a spoiler.
Adam Stacoviak
...you can feel all those things. Yeah, I mean, that movie is probably predictive, in a way, to what might be coming. And also quite scary, because if you read the second novel, it's not good. Let's just say. Doom and gloom.
Jerod Santo
Well, you can't have a good story with just utopia. Utopia is the boringest thing there is. So you've got to have doom and gloom, otherwise you've got no storyline...
Adam Stacoviak
For sure.
Jerod Santo
So it makes sense. It makes sense. But I can't believe we just cruised right past this rendering engine thing... I mean, \[unintelligible 00:09:51.07\] it's Apple Vision pro, but...
Nick Nisi
Oh, yeah.
Jerod Santo
...alternate rendering engines, only in the EU, but - that seems like it's probably good enough to at least get all the benchmarks out there, and see if WebKit on iOS, Safari on iOS is actually slow. I've always thought it was pretty snappy... I mean, as the phones have gotten real fast. But who knows? Maybe they're intentionally keeping it slow, so that their app store is more flourishing... Once we can have alternate rendering engines, even if we don't use them here in the States, the benchmarks will be out there, and that I think will spur them on to make it fast.
Adam Stacoviak
\[00:10:28.17\] It'll push the innovation, for sure. Yeah, I suppose that's true. It might actually influence Apple to allow us to have that, if there is innovation that comes from the act of choice, right?
Jerod Santo
Well, I think just the embarrassment of it will be enough.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. Like, if you're slower than the competition... This may not be what y'all feel, but the number one feature I cannot stand is when I swipe back to a tab, and it has to refresh.
Nick Nisi
Yes.
Adam Stacoviak
Right? Does that just drive you crazy?
Nick Nisi
It does. And it like shows you like a pre-rendered, like an old \[unintelligible 00:10:53.02\]
Jerod Santo
This is what it used to look like...
Nick Nisi
Yeah. And I'm trying to tap some of them, and it's like "Oh wait, that's basically image."
Jerod Santo
"Please don't go away...!" Yeah. And it refreshes, and it's not in the same place anymore, or the content's gone, and you're like "Oh, I saw what it was...!"
Adam Stacoviak
Or you're on a terrible connection and you've got to wait. The back and forth in the multitasking between tabs is just like... I do not like the "Let's re-render that page." Like no, just stop. Don't do that. Give me what was there, even if it's not accurate, because I'm just reading it, not interacting with it.
Jerod Santo
But you have 500 tabs, so you can't really blame the browser for that...
Adam Stacoviak
I can. I can do that.
Jerod Santo
Now they're supposed to hold all of those? How's it supposed to hold all those in memory?
Adam Stacoviak
Um, buy the bigger phone, deal with it...? I don't know...
Nick Nisi
What are those actually doing for you, being there?
Jerod Santo
Right?
Nick Nisi
Is it like a comfort, knowing --
Adam Stacoviak
So I will admit, I am not happy about my situation. \[laughter\]
Jerod Santo
So you don't think this is optimal.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I'm focusing on the main thing, and the main thing is not closing tabs. The main thing is progress. And so I just sort of keep going.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, but you brush your teeth, don't you?
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, but that's not akin -- like, nobody's \[unintelligible 00:11:55.09\] my tabs, okay? \[laughter\] Nobody is looking at my tabs; only me. So it's my mess.
Jerod Santo
But you'd have that refresh problem less if you had less tabs.
Adam Stacoviak
I don't think so.
Jerod Santo
I think so.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I suppose just by sheer numbers --
Jerod Santo
Nick agrees. He's nodding his head.
Nick Nisi
I have like five tabs open... If I get beyond that, I'm like "This is too much. I have to close them."
Jerod Santo
That's pretty cleanly. Let me see. I'm gonna get a count here.
Adam Stacoviak
We're all counting tabs...
Jerod Santo
I'm sitting on 27 tabs. Healthy?
Nick Nisi
Okay, wait. On the phone --
Jerod Santo
Yeah, Nick was probably exaggerating... 498, so you're un der the --
Oh, my gosh... I'm at 17. No, 19. On the phone.
Okay, so five was a lie. A bold-faced lie.
Nick Nisi
On the desktop. I'm thinking the desktop.
Jerod Santo
Oh, yeah. My desktop is pretty clean.
Nick Nisi
So what is it on the desktop? Is it similar?
Adam Stacoviak
No, zero.
Jerod Santo
Zero tabs?
Adam Stacoviak
Well, yeah. I mean, I don't have a browser open... My computer's right there. It's not even opened.
Jerod Santo
Well, if it was open, how many tabs would it have in it?
Adam Stacoviak
As many as necessary for the moment. I'm in the present. Yeah.
Jerod Santo
Okay. So you do maintain your --
Adam Stacoviak
Oh yeah. It's an iOS issue. And so I think the cool feature with Safari on iOS is that when you start typing in an address, it will go to the tab. Instead of going new, into a new tab, it'll say "Open in existing tab." And so I do that a lot.
Nick Nisi
Yeah. It does do that, and that's really nice.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. So I might have something open... I mean, that's not really a good feature, really, in my opinion. I mean, it's just helpful to not open one more tab. But I just haven't gone back and close things. There's research I'm doing that I just have forgotten about... And so maybe I'll go back into a garbage collection, and be like "Okay, is this really garbage, or is it a treasure?"
Jerod Santo
You need to mark and sweep that.
Adam Stacoviak
For sure.
Nick Nisi
Let me ask you another, potentially personal question...
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. Go deep.
Nick Nisi
How many unread emails are in your inbox right now?
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, a lot...
Nick Nisi
Okay...
Jerod Santo
Yeah, I can tell.
Nick Nisi
I'm constantly at Inbox zero.
Jerod Santo
I'm also an Inbox zero guy.
Nick Nisi
Because if there's something there, I just randomly, throughout the day, will just like "Highlight all, Archive." If I need it, it's there. I can go back.
Adam Stacoviak
An obscene amount. I am not an Inbox zero guy. I am an Inbox red guy. And archive as necessary. I archive a lot. But we get so many emails, I just can't keep up with it. So I feel like -- I've sort of just given up with having to maintain email. I mean, it's just such a -- it's a drain on humanity.
Jerod Santo
Have you ever declared bankruptcy and started over?
Adam Stacoviak
\[00:14:14.02\] Oh, yeah. At least once a year.
Nick Nisi
You at least have the badge hidden, right?
Adam Stacoviak
Once, twice a year I'll do it.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, what's your badge say?
Adam Stacoviak
Like unread, or --
Jerod Santo
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
Thousands.
Jerod Santo
How do you deal with that? Isn't that just anxiety?
Adam Stacoviak
"What's on top?" That's it. That's all it matters.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, but the badge is staring at you with 1,000 unreads.
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, I don't pay attention to that badge.
Nick Nisi
Wouldn't it be nice if like you looked at your phone and it said two? Like, "I have two new emails. I feel special."
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, I don't let --
Jerod Santo
Do you maintain an unread count in your head? Like "Well, it used to be 1274, but now I see is 1276, so there's two new emails."
Adam Stacoviak
Not at all. Nope.
Jerod Santo
You're just constantly doing diffs in your head...?
Adam Stacoviak
Nope. I don't even -- so I actually hide that red orb from those things, so no badge count on iOS.
Jerod Santo
Oh... So he's in denial. He's in denial. "If I don't look at it, it'll go away."
Adam Stacoviak
That's right.
Nick Nisi
"I didn't see it. It's new to me."
Adam Stacoviak
It's not a problem, really.
Jerod Santo
If it works for you, it works for you.
Adam Stacoviak
It's true.
Jerod Santo
Until you get to the 500 tabs. Then it doesn't work for you anymore.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. Well, I agree. It's not ideal. I do need to garbage-collect, and move things to somewhere else. Obsidian... I mean, that's where I organize -- Obsidian is a huge help to like... If I have a thought or a note to take, it's Obsidian. Every single time. It's so fast... It's obviously Markdown... Obsidian is a lifesaver. I'm kind of like not cool with all their new stuff they're doing. I'm worried they'll get to Notion level, with like adding so much stuff into Obsidian. I'm a little concerned.
Nick Nisi
Yeah? Let's talk about that.
Jerod Santo
What are they adding?
Adam Stacoviak
It's a low-level concern, not a big-level concern... In the fact that they might be influenced. Now, I'm not a big fan of Notion necessarily. We recently downgraded to a free plan, because we don't even use it anymore... And we were paying for it, like a couple -- probably 20, 40 bucks a month. And I'm like "This is just stupid. We can't do this anymore, because we're not using it actively." There's some information that's still in there that we keep, and we'll pull out eventually... But I think Notion just got -- it's a really helpful tool for some people. And I think it's awesome for people who can really find workflows for it. But I feel it's just so cumbersome. And the proprietary black box of database in there... In particular, we maintained a sponsorship schedule that I wanted to pull out a small slice and share with a sponsor. So create a page, pull out some of the data from our big, massive Hour Table, and pull that data over to a page and share it with them - can't do it. Can't do it. So it's just so internal-focused, not collaborative-focused. You can have guests... But even there, I couldn't share a sliver of guests data, that was their data in this big table. And so I think it's a great tool... If they would have had that one feature, maybe I'd stay. Maybe. But it was kind of like, I said before it was fast, and then after I said it was fast, it started to be slow.
Jerod Santo
It never felt fast for me. That was my biggest gripe.
Nick Nisi
I mean, the fact that it's a blackbox proprietary thing...
Adam Stacoviak
Right. Your data's locked in there.
Nick Nisi
And two of the three of us just flew here... It has no offline support, years into its lifecycle. That's not very useful. But the new features that have been added to Obsidian - at least like the main one that is going against the Markdown thing is their Canvas feature, where you can like drag and drop notes, and you can put post-its, and draw lines between notes and all of that... It's obviously not Markdown, but it is a very readable JSON file that you could probably do something with if you needed to.
Jerod Santo
Is it?
Nick Nisi
Yeah.
Jerod Santo
I've only used that once. It's cool, because you can also completely ignore all the stuff...
Nick Nisi
Yes. I think the bigger problem with Obsidian though is there's so much reliance on plugins. And there are fantastic plugins in there... But you're relying on all of these third-party devs, who -- for example, the calendar plugin; it broke for me, and I had to completely uninstall it and reinstall it. And that's relied upon by like periodic notes, and like these other plugins... And I went and looked, I'm like "Why did this break?" I have no idea.
\[00:18:06.12\] This plugin has not been touched in three years. And it's like a pivotal plugin. So the rot of plugins, and the proprietary nature of like "Oh, I'm gonna build this data view thing, which is like an SQL type thing", that's a third-party thing, and if they stop supporting that at some point... Like, I've got all these notes with this...
Adam Stacoviak
That's kind of where I keep my -- it's not a dashboard for me, it's just more like my thinking. Notes, thinking... Sponsor data is in there. Reads... Everything, all the stuff. And I just keep it simple. I focus on tags to get around, titling... And I love the search features. Like, Cmd+O just to get to whatever, and start searching for things.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. I use that all time.
Adam Stacoviak
That's super-good for me.
Nick Nisi
You mentioned being super-organized with it. Are you actually meticulously organizing within Obsidian?
Jerod Santo
I'm not.
Nick Nisi
Yeah, me neither.
Adam Stacoviak
In prose only.
Jerod Santo
\[unintelligible 00:18:54.11\] in folders.
Adam Stacoviak
You can keyword-search. I'm good with that, but that's about it. Foldering a little bit...
Nick Nisi
Yeah. It's so hard to keep it organized... And I get really distraught with how unorganized it all is...
Adam Stacoviak
It's almost just better to be flat though. No directories. Like, just flat.
Nick Nisi
Definitely.
Jerod Santo
I like the Daily Note, where you just hit today and you have a new note for the day, stamp on it. And that's where I do all my scratch writing, and just whatever... And I then take that and I like to have that organized by the actual like folders of the year, and all that kind of stuff. I think you said you've automated that at some point...
Nick Nisi
I've bought a what?
Jerod Santo
You've automated moving stuff into them...
Nick Nisi
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Jerod Santo
How do I do that?
Nick Nisi
So I have a -- just through the daily note plugin, or the periodic notes plugin, it automatically sorts those into like a 2024 folder, and then a January folder, and then a week one folder...
Jerod Santo
Okay, so there's a plugin called Periodic Notes, that moves those for you.
Nick Nisi
Yeah. When I create a new one, it just automatically follows some pattern to create that.
Jerod Santo
Now, there's a built-in daily note already.
Nick Nisi
Yes.
Jerod Santo
This is additional to that?
Nick Nisi
This is slightly better, because there's daily notes, and this one will do weekly notes, monthly notes, quarterly notes, yearly notes... So I can just push a button to go to my quarterly note for this quarter.
Jerod Santo
It's just organizing them for you though? Or is it actually like a whole new part of the UI?
Nick Nisi
You turn off the daily notes plugin, and use the --
Jerod Santo
I don't know about -- there is no plugin. Or is there a plugin?
Nick Nisi
It's a core plugin.
Jerod Santo
It's built into Obsidian.
Nick Nisi
Right.
Jerod Santo
Okay.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, there's a difference between a daily and a quarterly. Like, what's a quarterly note to you, versus a daily note?
Nick Nisi
So I would have a first quarter 2024 note right now, and if I needed to add stuff to that -- I more use that as like a dashboard, where I'm taking summaries of weeks or months, and putting it in there. The goal is "Oh, I can look at this quarter and say "I accomplished a whole of this in this quarter." But I have to be diligent enough to actually get it in in a way that it will filter up to that... But that's the idea at least.
Adam Stacoviak
Give us a glimpse behind the scenes of what are your organizing; personal, career, work, ideas... What have you got in there?
Jerod Santo
Funemployment...
Nick Nisi
Funemployment, yeah. \[laughter\] I traditionally keep everything in one vault, because I want to do the backlinks between everything... But I do actually -- I use a Mac tool called Hazel, that can watch the folder, and based on the names of things, move stuff. So I'll move things from -- you know, I'll just throw everything in the root, and then if it detects "Oh, this is actually a work note", it moves it to the work note folder, so that if I ever needed to, I could just take that and make it its own vault later. But right now, they're all kind of put together.
Jerod Santo
Okay.
Nick Nisi
But the big thing that I'm looking into right now with this; having no organization - I want to continue that. But I want to look at local LLMs as a way to like train it on that. So all I have to do is talk to my notes; I take notes, and then I don't ever look at the notes. I talk to them, and they talk back to me.
Jerod Santo
That would be cool.
Nick Nisi
I think that's the true future, but I want it to be all local. I don't want to be sending all of my notes to Open AI, or whatever.
Jerod Santo
Well, that's totally doable, I think. That's cool.
Nick Nisi
Yeah.
Jerod Santo
I'm such a non-power user... I don't do any of this stuff.
Adam Stacoviak
Really?
Jerod Santo
I mean, I open up a new note, and I write into it.
Adam Stacoviak
That's it?
Jerod Santo
\[00:22:00.07\] And then I Cmd+O, I Cmd+T, I CMD+N... And I hit the Today Note thing...
Nick Nisi
The most important thing though, do you look at your graph?
Jerod Santo
For me it's a Markdown editor. No.
Nick Nisi
You don't look at your constellation?
Adam Stacoviak
Me neither.
Jerod Santo
No. Do you like project yours on the ceiling above your bed?
Nick Nisi
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
"Yes, I do."
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\]
Nick Nisi
I project it on my child's ceiling at night. I'm just like "Look at what daddy did today. That little constellation."
Jerod Santo
Yeah, constellation.
Adam Stacoviak
I think for me though, the killer feature I suppose with it - it's not really a feature, it's more of a usage - has been... I've gotten into home lab stuff, so building Ubuntu servers, and like building out ZFS storage systems, and all these different things that require repeatable steps. So I've automated future Adam by docs, my own docs. So I have my own docs. If I need to stand up a new thing, or a new way of whatever it is, I'm going into my own docs and doing the things from my docs for myself.
Jerod Santo
But that's just notes, though. That's not a feature. It's like, you like it because your notes are in there.
Adam Stacoviak
Sure. But I suppose --
Nick Nisi
I like notes...
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\]
Adam Stacoviak
What did you have before? It was like a directory you'd put Markdown files in before? I suppose it's the same thing, basically, but it provides that UI...
Jerod Santo
Well, that's why I like it. It's literally the same thing.
Adam Stacoviak
No, I know. But I mean, you can copy code snippets out of it... It's got helpful features as a UI, that isn't just Markdown docs. It's copy-paste, prose, you've got code snippets in there, stuff like that... So - sure, but it's helped me organize it better.
Jerod Santo
Sure.
Adam Stacoviak
Whereas before, it was like "Where do I take notes? In Notion? No. Google Doc?" Not for code, right? Like, it's just not that good at it.
Jerod Santo
Notes.app?
Adam Stacoviak
Notes.app, maybe...
Jerod Santo
I've got a lot of notes in Notes.app.
Adam Stacoviak
Sure. But can you copy code out of that pretty easily? You can, you can copy and paste, but you can't click the Copy... There's a lot of features that are part of Obsidian that have helped me make my own docs, is all I'm saying.
Nick Nisi
I'm not a user of WYSIWYG. The Notes app - I can't do it.
Adam Stacoviak
"I can't do it." \[laughs\]
Jerod Santo
If you use it as plain text, it's fine. But yeah, once you get more fancy... I mean, that's why I like Obsidian as well. I like to have a better editor around plain text things. My favorite new feature is the fact that they have tables support now. It's Markdown tables... But it's just easier to write them than the difficulty of writing Markdown tables. And you can copy-paste them, you can say "Add new column", and it's gonna go ahead and just generate that text for me. That's awesome. Those are the kind of features that I want. I don't want any of the other features. But I don't have any plugins. I don't even -- I've never looked at the plugins directory. I have zero plugins. How many have you got?
Adam Stacoviak
Zero.
Nick Nisi
I don't wanna say...
Jerod Santo
\[laugh\]
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, gosh... 500?
Nick Nisi
Hang on. I'll give you an accurate...
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, I'm the same. I have no plugins.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, same.
Adam Stacoviak
That's what I'm trying to say, like, don't ruin Obsidian by making it too powerful in terms of its feature set. Just keep it opt-in, I suppose.
Nick Nisi
Better than I thought. I have a modest 40 plugins.
Jerod Santo
40?!
Adam Stacoviak
40? Gosh. \[unintelligible 00:24:51.05\]
Nick Nisi
That's less than Neovim probably...
Yeah. It's less than half of Neovim. \[laughter\]
Jerod Santo
So how do you find these plugins? How do you manage them? No wonder you're so concerned about third-party developers.
Nick Nisi
Yes, yes. A lot of my workflow is based upon that, upon third-party --
Jerod Santo
So do you imagine something and then say "There's gotta be a plugin for that"? Or do you just, you know, when you're going to the bathroom, you're gonna like scroll on your phone, you're thinking "I'll just check the plugin directory..."
Nick Nisi
\[laughs\] You know, I'm a tools guy.
Jerod Santo
We know that.
Nick Nisi
I like thinking about my tools, I watch videos on it... Obsidian just came out with their top list of "These are our 2023 best plugin, best theme", whatever.
Jerod Santo
And you'll go read -- you'll download each one of those and try it?
Nick Nisi
I looked at them at least, and I was like "Oh, that is kind of cool." The main one that I got out of that was one called Folder Notes. So if you do use folders - I have some folders in there - you can set "When I click on this folder, this is the note that opens, so that I can have a work dashboard, and I can just click on the folder and I see that." It's like really simple. Oh, he's downloading it...
Jerod Santo
\[00:25:58.11\] \[laughs\]
Adam Stacoviak
No... My wife is texting me.
Jerod Santo
Ah... How rude... \[laughter\]
Adam Stacoviak
Sorry. \[unintelligible 00:26:02.21\]
Jerod Santo
Ironically, to that moment, I was into this, and I was thinking "You should do some curation. You should be like the Obsidian plugin guy." You know?
Adam Stacoviak
There's so many of those though, aren't there?
Jerod Santo
Are there?
Nick Nisi
Yeah, I'm sure there is.
Jerod Santo
"Top 12 Obsidian plugins you must have as a dev."
Nick Nisi
I have a very low set of plugins...
Adam Stacoviak
I would entertain a well-maintained dashboard plugin. I would entertain that. Because I desire that. I don't desire it in another tool. I'm in Obsidian. Like, it's always open. It's always there. The moment I have an idea, a new doc is created. Or if I'm having a conversation, the notes are there. I wouldn't mind a dashboard that helps me. And I don't even dislike your idea of the daily, quarterly, yearly notes idea, too... But I don't want to support a plugin to do it. Or have the lack of support with it not being maintained.
Jerod Santo
Have you written any of your own plugins?
Nick Nisi
I have dabbled with it, yes. I have one -- I haven't released it, but it just parses your Markdown and looks for a pattern, like gh:, and then 1234. And it's configured for my work repo. That'll automatically just insert a link, and it'll give you the status of whether that PR is closed, or whatever.
Jerod Santo
Nice. And you write all that in pure JavaScript, or what?
Nick Nisi
Pure TypeScript, baby...
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\]
Adam Stacoviak
"Pure TypeScript, baby!"
Jerod Santo
Alright, that's cool.
Adam Stacoviak
Let's talk about the idea of Obsidian supporting the plugin. So it has the core plugins... And let's say there's a very popular plugin out there, that is less than maintained, or could be better. Do you think it would be wise of them to begin to offer some support to the developers that are building that ecosystem? What are your thoughts on how they can support it? Not so much take it over and make it theirs... What are your thoughts on that for them?
Nick Nisi
I think that that would be a good idea... Because that's the draw, especially. It's what makes it a powerful thing, beyond just a blank notes editor. It's being able to extend it, and "Oh, I see this cool feature in Notion." Well, somebody might have brought it over to Obsidian, and you can see how to play with it. So they should do that.
I don't know for sure, but what I've seen in the past is like cool plugins - they're no stranger to just doing the Apple sherlocking of those plugins. One was Addmonitions. Being able to add like a call-out in your notes. That's a plugin. Now it's part of it. And they've changed the syntax, which is kind of annoying.
Jerod Santo
What do you mean a call-out?
Nick Nisi
Like putting a call-out in your notes. So I can say "This is important" or "Warning", or whatever.
Jerod Santo
Like make it big.
Nick Nisi
And yeah, have it in there, and --
Jerod Santo
Is that Markdown, or...?
Nick Nisi
Yeah, it's Markdown, but it's a weird -- it's like a quote, with square brackets around what type of addmonition it is... And then all of that, and everything, inside of the quotes, with the greater than signs on the left... That would be an addmonition.
Jerod Santo
Can't you just like go \#\# and make it an h2, and now it's big?
Nick Nisi
Well, yeah, but then it's an h2. That'll show up in an outline as an h2...
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. I use the outline plugin. Well, I guess that's default. It's in there. Right?
Nick Nisi
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
The outline option. It's on the right hand side, in the little sidebar. I love that. I mean, especially for large docs, where you want to scroll it, you could jump to places... That's so helpful, the outline. And I agree, you'd want it as a call-out, not as an h2, because it would show up in that hierarchy, and you want it to be within an h2, not an h2.
Nick Nisi
Yup.
Jerod Santo
Bold. Have \[unintelligible 00:29:19.22\]
Nick Nisi
I just use --
Jerod Santo
Cmd+B.
Nick Nisi
I actually do Cmd+B, yeah. And it puts the stars -- I can never remember, because Slack is like the one that's like the opposite...
Jerod Santo
Slack ruined it, yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
What do they do? What's theirs?
Jerod Santo
Oh, they don't support Markdown syntax highlighting. They support their own little close to, but not close enough...
Nick Nisi
Yeah. I think in normal Markdown it's two asterisks on each side, but in Slack it's one, and so then I mix up which one is which...
Jerod Santo
Right. But one asterisk is technically italic, which is also one underscore. Which - maybe that's a problem with Markdown, is they had too many ways of italicizing...
Nick Nisi
Yeah, potentially.
Adam Stacoviak
So one idea is could there be usage-based sharing, profit sharing to a plugin developer? So kind of like saying "Well, you pay for usage-based services." Maybe it's usage-based revenue to them, because there's that many installs...
Jerod Santo
Based on the installs, or what?
Adam Stacoviak
\[00:30:14.26\] I'm thinking like how could they do that, but I think -- that's one idea. But then I'm thinking, "Well, how do they actually make money?" And I think the main way they make money is from their sync.
Nick Nisi
Yup.
Adam Stacoviak
Right? I would actually love to have my own Obsidian Sync Server in my home lab. Because what does it really take to synchronize -- I've only got like a couple. My iOS, and my desktop. It's not like 50 people. I suppose at that point it maybe gets more complex... But I'd love to run my own Sync Server and skip the 10 bucks a month. Because I've got a server at home. I can spin up a Docker container, and I've got plenty of resources, and RAM, and CPUs...
Jerod Santo
Are you using sync?
Nick Nisi
I am. I signed up early enough that I get it for half price. For life, I think. I hope.
Adam Stacoviak
For life. Wow.
Jerod Santo
For life, or until they change their mind. Whichever comes first.
Adam Stacoviak
He's one-upping us here. Okay...
Nick Nisi
But I do also -- like, I'm comfortable with it because you have to provide an encryption key.
Adam Stacoviak
That's true.
Nick Nisi
So I know that they're encrypted going up to their server...
Adam Stacoviak
That's true. That's a really good point; it is very secure in the way it does it. You have to have that key to decrypt it.
Nick Nisi
Yup. And they warn you plenty. Like, if you lose this, you're done.
Adam Stacoviak
I mean, couldn't you do that in a Docker container though, on your own?
Nick Nisi
Yeah, yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
I mean, I don't mind paying 10 bucks a month, but that's a lot' over years...
Nick Nisi
It is, yes.
Adam Stacoviak
I would rather just pay them -- that seems like a poor way to pay them, is what I'm trying to say.
Nick Nisi
Agreed.
Adam Stacoviak
I feel like that's something they can skip.
Nick Nisi
Well, they should just improve that, I think.
Adam Stacoviak
Making more features, you mean?
Nick Nisi
Yeah. They're working on actually being able to collaborate better between -- right now I share a vault with somebody, and we can both be in there, editing the same document... And it works. But it's like, he typed something, and then five seconds later, it shows up on my screen. So it's not like Google Docs, real-time. If they added something more like that... Because that's like a powerful feature of Notion, too; we can collaborate and we can be on the same thing and just do it, and it's all gonna be there, and it's gonna be fine.
Adam Stacoviak
And maybe even like an adaption strategy for them could be to open-source what is a basic Sync Server, right?
Nick Nisi
Oh, yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
And the paid version is "Okay, you can't host this thing." Maybe you can do an on-prem version of it, too. Maybe it's just a password version of a Docker Hub that you pull; a different Docker container, for example. But I wouldn't mind a free version... Because everyone can use it, right? Not for 10 bucks a month, but the ones who need this collaborative feature, which I think is super-cool, would pay the 10 bucks a month.
Nick Nisi
Sure. Another cool thing though, is - because a vault is just a folder of Markdown files, you can throw that in Dropbox, or you can throw it in Google, or iCloud Drive, and...
Jerod Santo
That's what I do.
Nick Nisi
Yeah. And then it's synced. And there's even a plugin that will --
Jerod Santo
It's synced, but the iOS app won't use it, right?
Nick Nisi
Yeah, I can't remember how that works. I've just been pampered with \[unintelligible 00:32:53.09\]
Jerod Santo
I just don't use it on iOS.
Nick Nisi
Well, and that's another thing there. iOS is lacking.
Adam Stacoviak
What an absolute shame. Legit. I mean, to have your brain not with you, basically...
Jerod Santo
Well, my brain's with me.
Adam Stacoviak
It's like leaving your head at home, in my opinion, for me.
Jerod Santo
I don't put my brain in there. I just put my scratch and my documents in there.
Nick Nisi
What I tend to do is on iOS I use an app called Drafts...
Jerod Santo
I have Drafts.
Nick Nisi
...and that's like a second area where I can do like calling of things. Like "Oh, that's meaningless. That was a one-time thing." And try and make it so that only important things actually show up in Obsidian.
Adam Stacoviak
See, I think -- I wanted to have a place where I could just... Like, one place to put everything. No matter if it's meaningless, or meaningful. Because sometimes things are meaningless in the moment, but become meaningful over time, because you're like "Wow, what was that thing again?" And if it's in the ephemeral and it goes away, then you don't have that to call back on. So I just throw everything in there. It's just text. Who cares, right? It's a small directory. It's maybe a couple megs at this point for me. I don't even know.
Nick Nisi
Yeah. And with the sync they give you 50 gigs, I think, which is -- I'll never fill that up with text.
Adam Stacoviak
That's so much space. If you have 50 gigs of text...
Jerod Santo
Let me elevate this conversation slightly. Let me go up a level.
Adam Stacoviak
Please do.
Jerod Santo
\[00:34:08.27\] Is there no value in ephemeral? Is there nothing worth forgetting? Is everything have to be remembered all the time to be worth anything?
Adam Stacoviak
That's just too deep, man...
Nick Nisi
See, I think that that's where a locally-trained LLM comes into play. Let it decide later.
Adam Stacoviak
Yes. Good answer, Nick.
Jerod Santo
Let it decide what's worth keeping and what's worth forgetting?
Nick Nisi
Yeah. Let my notes decide. If it needs to tell me, it's trained on it, and it can tell me.
Adam Stacoviak
Truth. I like that.
Jerod Santo
Do you not appreciate your agency in life?
Nick Nisi
I know that I have no agency.
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\] Alright. Eyes wide open.
Adam Stacoviak
Say that again? You don't know if you have agency?
Jerod Santo
He knows he has no agency.
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, you know. Okay. So you've given up.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. \[laughs\]
Adam Stacoviak
Wow...
Jerod Santo
He's just the vessel through which the computers can do whatever they want to. So if they ever do bear arms against us, look out for Nick. He's coming for you. \[laughter\]
Nick Nisi
I have to say that. I have to come out on their side, because I know what is coming.
Jerod Santo
He's already staking his claim.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, yeah. You have to be on their side. I've been saying that for years. I agree.
Nick Nisi
ChatGPT has revealed things to me...
Adam Stacoviak
And if you're a Silicon Valley fan, like I think you are, then - have you watched season six of Silicon Valley? Have you watched the whole thing?
Nick Nisi
Oh, yeah. Twice.
Jerod Santo
Oh, gosh...
Adam Stacoviak
So you're with me then. "What's in the bag?" "Clif bars and a gun." Right? Best line ever from Gilfoyle. He's like "How should I be feeling?" \[unintelligible 00:35:17.00\] The best one liners, right?
Nick Nisi
Yeah...
Adam Stacoviak
The last episode was phenomenal. Anyways... I'm with you, though. If there's an uprising with AI, I was for you. Okay? I was for you. It's coming.
Jerod Santo
I'm gonna make a stand. I'm gonna go down with the humans. On a recent episode you were all declaring how you were a humanist, and stuff.
Adam Stacoviak
Ah, yeah. That's true.
Jerod Santo
Now look at you. Just on the other side, showing your true colors.
Adam Stacoviak
I appreciate you pulling out my contradiction there. I am a humanist...
Jerod Santo
Until... \[laughs\]
Nick Nisi
Until there's something better.
Jerod Santo
Until it's expedient not to be.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, I suppose I have hope...
Jerod Santo
I'm making a stand. I'm pulling the plug at some point.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, we are in Texas, and you kind of have to be \[unintelligible 00:36:00.11\] in Texas, right?
Jerod Santo
That's true. This is where we makes stands in the world.
Nick Nisi
\[laughs\] I don't see it as a threat right now. I don't know...
Jerod Santo
That's what you have to say. You're already taken. \[laughs\]
Nick Nisi
That's true.
Adam Stacoviak
I do like your idea of an LLM trained on this, whatever my vault is. I think that is actually a really --
Jerod Santo
You could do that today with Ollama, or stuff... Have you tried it, or are you just waiting?
Nick Nisi
Not yet. I just haven't had time.
Adam Stacoviak
When you do, let me know.
Jerod Santo
When are you gonna have time? I mean...
Nick Nisi
You'd think right now...
Jerod Santo
That's what I was thinking. \[laughs\] You know he's funemployed for the moment. He's gonna -- when you start?
Adam Stacoviak
Tomorrow.
Nick Nisi
Next Monday.
Jerod Santo
Oh, okay. So you don't have much time left. He's like "I've gotta go... I've gotta go train this model real quick."
Adam Stacoviak
"In three days, Wednesday through Friday, I can get this LLM trained."
Nick Nisi
The problem is I'm so centrally focused. I've got a talk tomorrow at this conference, and I can't do anything until that is done.
Jerod Santo
That's true. Fair.
Adam Stacoviak
Right. I feel you on that.
Jerod Santo
Maybe on the plane ride home. Well, eventually that'll just be a plugin, right?
Nick Nisi
There are plugins.
Jerod Santo
Oh, okay.
Nick Nisi
I was looking at one specifically because it was in the Best of 2023 list... But it was one where you give it an Open AI key, and then it does something to--
Jerod Santo
That's all through Open AI, but there's so many models you can download and have on your machine now.
Nick Nisi
I know. I'm this close to trading convenience for security...
Jerod Santo
You should write that thing.
Nick Nisi
I'm always walking that line.
Jerod Santo
Right. I was gonna say, you should just plug your Open AI key in there and be done with it.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, then you're also giving them all that data too, right? Which is --
Jerod Santo
But has no agency. So...
Adam Stacoviak
That's true.
Jerod Santo
Resistance is futile.
Nick Nisi
What are they gonna do with it...?
Jerod Santo
No, I think that -- I think it wouldn't be very hard to get that one set up locally, and be the plug in author, man. Be the guy who leads the way to the local.
Adam Stacoviak
What's required for it? Roughly.
Nick Nisi
Python, I think.
Jerod Santo
Yeah...
Nick Nisi
So I'm out.
Jerod Santo
No wonder... \[laughter\] Hey, I wrote some Python last week, because of the exact same reason. And I enjoyed it. I like Python.
Nick Nisi
I've written 30 lines of Python in my life, I think. It was for a Raspberry Pi, to control the breadboard, to control a camera to take pictures. I made a wedding photobooth thing... And I wrote 30 lines of Python.
Jerod Santo
\[00:38:10.00\] And did you enjoy it?
Nick Nisi
It worked.
Jerod Santo
Significant whitespace, man. Just indent that sucker. Who needs curly braces?
Nick Nisi
\[laughs\] I do like their syntax for imports. I wish JavaScript would have taken that.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, it is nice. Alright. Well, Python killed the vibe...
Nick Nisi
That's what it always does.
Jerod Santo
Should we call it, or should we let Nick talk about TypeScript for a few minutes? Let's call it. Let's call it. \[laughter\]
Adam Stacoviak
Give us one minute of exactly why you love TypeScript.
Nick Nisi
Oh, man...
Adam Stacoviak
No, this show's over. This show's over. \[laughter\]
He was ready, he was ready...!
Jerod Santo
He was... \[laughter\]
Adam Stacoviak
Go ahead, Nick. We'll give you a minute.
Nick Nisi
I just love that Jerod doesn't like it. It's fun.
Jerod Santo
I knew that was the reason.
Nick Nisi
In the talk today \[unintelligible 00:38:51.01\] was like "You see this? A superset is like all of that, but better." And I just leaned over to Jerod and whispered "TypeScript..."
Adam Stacoviak
I bet you did.
Jerod Santo
He did.
Nick Nisi
And then Jerod left the room.
Jerod Santo
I literally...
Adam Stacoviak
He's like "I'm out of here..."
Jerod Santo
Well, I already have my five-year-old response to that. I say "Superset? More like pooperset." Get it? Poop... TypeScript...
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, okay.
Jerod Santo
It's pooper...
Adam Stacoviak
Sure.
Jerod Santo
And that's why I had to leave the room, because I'm not five anymore...
Nick Nisi
But you said it, and then left.
Jerod Santo
True. It was a mic drop.
Nick Nisi
\[laughs\]
Jerod Santo
I came out here to find the mic, so I could drop one real quick...
Nick Nisi
Nice.
Adam Stacoviak
That's right. Well, we appreciate you telling us about TypeScript right at the end there... It was a pretty concise reason to use it.
Nick Nisi
Yeah. I'm sure that'll be good.
Jerod Santo
It's literally the only reason. \[laughter\] If you don't like Jerod Santo, you should like TypeScript. But if you do like Jerod Santo...
Adam Stacoviak
Well, then use TypeScript.
Nick Nisi
You want me to make a commercial for Changelog right now? I can do that.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, man.
Nick Nisi
Like, with that. Just saying that. "Come to JS Party, and if you don't like Jerod, then we'll --" I don't know. "We'll rename it TS Party." I already generated the logo for it...
Jerod Santo
He did. It's a C+ logo.
Adam Stacoviak
Ugh...
**Break**: \[00:40:03.23\]
Amy Dutton
So I need to hear about the tab game.
Jerod Santo
Oh, yes. Open tabs and own domain. Those are my two plans. Because you have a lot of open tabs...
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, yes.
Jerod Santo
...you have a lot of own domains...
Amy Dutton
Yes...
Jerod Santo
...and I'm wondering who's got more of which. Now, I know his number...
Amy Dutton
Of open tabs?
Jerod Santo
Open tabs in his browser window.
Amy Dutton
Well, it's hard to count.
Jerod Santo
It's hard to count what? Tabs?
Amy Dutton
Tabs. There's so many of them.
Jerod Santo
Well, he's got a trick to it. Do you wanna tell her the trick?
Adam Stacoviak
iOS tells you.
Amy Dutton
Oh, does it? Even if you're using Chrome, or like another browser?
Jerod Santo
Oh, we don't do that.
Adam Stacoviak
What's Chrome?
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\]
Amy Dutton
What other options are there?
Adam Stacoviak
I mean on my phone. \[laughter\] Yeah, it's Safari only.
Amy Dutton
Well, I still use Arc. I still use Arc on my phone.
Adam Stacoviak
You can't do that...
Amy Dutton
Yeah, and they just released Arc Search.
Jerod Santo
I heard about it. I got the email, but I didn't look at it.
Amy Dutton
So I saw it, I haven't tried it. I downloaded it, I'm like "I'm ready to go."
Jerod Santo
What's it supposed to be?
Amy Dutton
Like AI search... So you would ask it a question -- I'm assuming this is what it is. So take this all with a grain of salt. But in December, the CEO released a video of things that they were planning. And one of the things was you just type in whatever topic, and if you go to Google, a lot of times you're just going to click through the first five options anyways. So he's like "Why do all that? Why not just have Arc load those first five options into your tabs, and then you can go through what you're looking for?"
Jerod Santo
Okay...
Adam Stacoviak
Is that sans ads?
Amy Dutton
I mean, you're getting around Google sponsored stuff...
Adam Stacoviak
Okay, you've got my attention.
Amy Dutton
So Arc is going to -- unless Arc is going to try and advertise those things. I'll tell you what fascinates me about the Browser Company in general, and just what they're doing... It's how they do their releases. Because they'll highlight "This developer did this feature", and they'll create a video and highlight that person. I don't know if they're open source, but from somebody that's coding and contributing to a larger codebase, that's really intriguing to me to humanize...
Jerod Santo
Yeah, to have a name to a feature.
Amy Dutton
Yeah, exactly.
Jerod Santo
That is cool. I've seen some of their streams, release streams, and I'm very surprised, and delighted, I guess, happy for them... How many people watch those and participate.
Amy Dutton
Oh, yeah. But I'm sure it has to do with the community stuff that they're doing.
Jerod Santo
They've got a community thing going on over there that's like "Well--" They got a head of steam, so to speak.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. I was hating on them just for fun, really... I actually like all browser competition. I welcome it, because --
Amy Dutton
It's not really competition.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I think it is. I mean, it could be, long-term. If they create steam, and get adoption with devs, and that transcends to mainstream... That's how Firefox began, right? Firefox began as a grassroots -- like, some of our early roots as developers... I'm not sure about yours, but early roots was like "Get Firefox."
Amy Dutton
Oh, yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
And the tabs was revolutionary at the time.
Amy Dutton
And the extensions they had...
Adam Stacoviak
Precisely. So I mean, for now maybe not so much competition, because Google has such a market share with Chrome... And yes, I know what Chrome is. \[laughter\] Just to close all these loops here.
Amy Dutton
Thank you for clarifying. I was gonna explain it to you.
Adam Stacoviak
As a podcaster, you have to for fun hate sometimes, just to make it more entertaining.
Amy Dutton
Sure.
Jerod Santo
Let's get back to my game here... So Amy owns a lot of domains, Adam has a lot of open tabs. I will tell you, he has hit the 500 tab limit.
Amy Dutton
Oh, you might win.
Jerod Santo
iOS has a 500-tab limit, which I didn't know about...
Adam Stacoviak
And I didn't either, until I was like "New tab." "No."
Amy Dutton
So how do you find what you're looking for?
Adam Stacoviak
New Tab, search, put it in, move along...
Jerod Santo
He always opens a new tab, every time.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah.
Amy Dutton
So I feel like Arc -- Arc has revolutionized my tab game.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, this is only on iOS. This is not desktop. My desktop has zero tabs.
Amy Dutton
But still. Yes. I've got it both.
Jerod Santo
So you like the tabs over there, in the Arc land.
Amy Dutton
Yeah. I mean, it's great because you create these spaces... And so I have stuff for like Redwood. I have a Redwood space that has all my Redwood tabs in it, and I can stick everything there. It just makes it easier to find what I'm looking for.
Jerod Santo
You can manage your tabs a little better, maybe.
Adam Stacoviak
I should, honestly. But I just don't.
Amy Dutton
\[laughs\] Why?
Jerod Santo
That's what I want to know.
Adam Stacoviak
Because I don't have time for that, it's not a priority... And I don't need to.
Jerod Santo
What if it would organize it for you?
Adam Stacoviak
Well, I suppose if it did, that'd be cool. But I don't need to, so I just move along.
Amy Dutton
Yeah. Bigger fish to fry.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, climbing different hills, you know, that kind of thing...
Jerod Santo
So then the bigger question is how many domains do you own?
Amy Dutton
Do I have to give a number? \[unintelligible 00:49:41.23\]
Jerod Santo
Are you honestly embarrassed by it?
Amy Dutton
Maybe a little, just because of how many -- I mean, I will share; it's fine.
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\] You don't have to.
Amy Dutton
They're unused. I feel like "Oh, I've got this great idea." What's the first thing you do? You go buy the domain for it.
Adam Stacoviak
For sure.
Amy Dutton
And then I think part of it is like not wanting to let go of that domain because you kind of have to have a conversation with yourself of --
Jerod Santo
You have to admit to yourself "It's not gonna happen."
Amy Dutton
"It's not gonna happen. I'm just gonna let this idea die."
Adam Stacoviak
I'm with you. I can empathize.
Jerod Santo
\[00:50:12.02\] So you can just say more or less that Adam's tabs. That's all we need to know.
Amy Dutton
Less.
Jerod Santo
Less. Okay.
Amy Dutton
In goodness.
Adam Stacoviak
Is it more than 50, less than 100? Let's narrow it in.
Amy Dutton
More than both of those numbers.
Adam Stacoviak
More than both. Less than 200?
Jerod Santo
This is a binary search...
Amy Dutton
Yes.
Adam Stacoviak
Okay... Alright. We've found your range then.
Amy Dutton
It's actually about halfway. It's about 150.
Jerod Santo
Oh okay.
Amy Dutton
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, we have some domains that we keep holding onto as well, and every time I see the renewal, I'm like "Do we really need that?" And I've slowly gotten rid of some over the years...
Jerod Santo
Do you get rid of any?
Amy Dutton
Yeah, I do. I got rid of some this year.
Adam Stacoviak
I mean, think about the financial burden yearly of --
Amy Dutton
I know. And that's the thing. If you say like $10...
Adam Stacoviak
10 bucks.
Jerod Santo
Which it's not anymore.
Amy Dutton
That's like $1,500 to $2,000 a year in domain names, which - that's the embarrassing part.
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\]
Amy Dutton
Because that's year over year, you know?
Jerod Santo
Well, it shows that you have a lot of ideas.
Amy Dutton
Yeah, well, and that's a problem. \[laughter\]
Jerod Santo
How do you pick one though?
Adam Stacoviak
That's actually not a problem. That's a good thing, I think... Because you can have -- of the many domains we've owned, this one succeeded...
Amy Dutton
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
Changelog.com - we purchased that. We actually owned thechangelog.com originally...
Jerod Santo
We did The Facebook move.
Amy Dutton
Oh, nice.
Adam Stacoviak
And then we had to drop "the", only in domain... Obviously. You see it behind us...
Amy Dutton
Yeah, sure.
Adam Stacoviak
It says The Changelog. And we bought the domain from somebody else for a grand, for $1,000.
Amy Dutton
Oh. So I've never paid more than $10 for a single domain. Well, I take that back. I've paid whatever that base price is.
Jerod Santo
Some TLDs are more expensive, yeah.
Amy Dutton
Right. So here you go, trivia question - what is the most expensive domain that I own?
Adam Stacoviak
150 bucks.
Jerod Santo
Oh, that you own? Like what's the most expensive TLD?
Amy Dutton
Yeah.
Jerod Santo
Okay.
Adam Stacoviak
The yearly, or you mean the initial price?
Amy Dutton
The annual.
Adam Stacoviak
Okay, 150. That's where I'm going. 150.
Jerod Santo
What's the TLD?
Amy Dutton
I'll tell you how much it was, too.
Jerod Santo
This is a good one.
Adam Stacoviak
.fm's are expensive. 90 bucks a year.
Jerod Santo
Are they 90?
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. That's why I'm scrutinizing our domains, because I'm like --
Jerod Santo
Right. We've got a lot of .fm's.
Adam Stacoviak
We've got a lot of vanities that just redirect.
Jerod Santo
.ev is like 30 bucks a year, something like that...
Adam Stacoviak
I don't know.
Jerod Santo
Does that sound right?
Amy Dutton
Survey says...
Jerod Santo
What's that?
Amy Dutton
I said "Survey says..."
Jerod Santo
Yeah, exactly. Oh, you're playing my own game \[unintelligible 00:52:22.24\] Well, I think about 90 bucks is probably your limit, don't you think? So I think maybe it is --
Amy Dutton
It is .fm. So we have compressed.fm, and that is the most expensive.
Jerod Santo
That one's worth it though.
Amy Dutton
I think it's like 76 -- maybe it is 90. Or it depends on who you have it with.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, ours is 89, with Hover. We use Hover.
Jerod Santo
There was a new one I was looking at, and I was like "This would be cool", and it was like 150 bucks a year. I can't remember what it was... I lost it, but... Yeah. But it's worth it, because you're actually using it, right?
Amy Dutton
Yes, that is true. That is one that we are using.
Jerod Santo
Just like all of our vanity domains are worth it, because we use them.
Adam Stacoviak
I recently acquired a domain. Hopeful...
Jerod Santo
Hopeful.com?
Adam Stacoviak
No, not hopeful.com. \[laughter\] Hopeful that someday it will pay off... And the initial year was higher than its renewal, because it was like a vanity one, or like a prized one.
Jerod Santo
A new one, yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
And I will tell you the domain right now.
Jerod Santo
Okay...
Adam Stacoviak
It is homelab.tech.
Amy Dutton
That's a good one.
Jerod Santo
Homelab.tech.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. Now, I've got an idea I've been incubating without telling you, that I think you're gonna love. Hopefully.
Amy Dutton
\[laughs\]
Jerod Santo
Love it.
Amy Dutton
So this is another good one. My most recent purchase - GoodLooking Email. And I think I got .com and .email.
Jerod Santo
GoodLooking.email. So here's one that I want to get, but I can't get our hands on... It's changelog.news.
Adam Stacoviak
Yes.
Jerod Santo
Somebody is holding on to that sucker, and I can't get a hold of them. They're not using it...
Amy Dutton
Yeah, that's frustrating.
Jerod Santo
We have a show called Changelog News...
Amy Dutton
That makes sense.
Jerod Santo
...and a newsletter, and that'd be great to have changelog.news. But now it's changelog.com/news. Gotta get that slash out of there...
Amy Dutton
I mean, that's the other part, how you rack up on them is when you have the redirects. I mentioned goodlookingemail.com and goodlooking.email, just make sure that --
Jerod Santo
\[00:54:10.13\] Yeah, that's two for one. Right.
Amy Dutton
Yeah.
Jerod Santo
So how do you feel about subdomains? Because a lot of people are like "Hey, if you've got a new idea, have your own website, not the Duttons.com. That's not yours, Amy. That's somebody else with the same name.
Amy Dutton
\[laughs\] That is true.
Jerod Santo
Selfteach.me?
Amy Dutton
That's right, yeah.
Jerod Santo
Okay, I guessed that. That was good. I remember that's your handle.
Amy Dutton
I'm impressed. That's a branding question that I have always going on in the back of my head.
Jerod Santo
I remember that your online handle was \[unintelligible 00:54:34.23\] and I remember a .me somewhere.
Amy Dutton
Well, nobody can remember that. That's the problem. So it's lik, do you go --
Adam Stacoviak
What is it? Say it again?
Amy Dutton
It's selfteach.me. And actually, this is interesting, how I acquired that domain - I was looking for something else, and Hover will recommend domains. And it was one of the recommended, and I was like "Yes!" And so I bought it.
Jerod Santo
I like that.
Adam Stacoviak
They got you.
Amy Dutton
Yeah, they did. I was like "That's why they have that feature."
Adam Stacoviak
We have an ongoing joke in my house... If my wife goes to Costco, they suddenly just put all the bedsheets into the end aisle, the end caps... Because my wife loves to buy bedsheets.
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\] Really? I didn't know that about her.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, not anymore, because I've disallowed it at this point. Like "We just have enough, babe. Okay?" But it's an ongoing joke. I'm like "Babe, they see you coming. They saw you coming \[unintelligible 00:55:15.23\] They're like "Put it out there. Amy will buy it."
Amy Dutton
Yes, yes.
Jerod Santo
So a lot of people will say you have a new idea, maybe it's a good-looking email... And instead of going out and registering that domain to domain - two of them - goodlookingemail.selfteach.me. And so now you have a place for that on the web, and you can build the thing, and then, if it's good and it takes off, and you're like "You know what? It deserves its own domain." Have you ever considered that?
Amy Dutton
Well, here's the thing... Is somebody's going to say "Oh, Changelog News already exists. I'm just gonna go ahead and buy the domain and squat on it until that person --"
Jerod Santo
Yeah, it's a squatter problem.
Amy Dutton
Yeah. Well, and I worked one time with a very shady client, that that's what he would do.
Jerod Santo
Really?
Amy Dutton
Yeah. He would buy up domain names that were like people's names; up and comer politicians and things like that, that he thought could go on to do big things that would want a vanity URL, and so he's gonna buy that.
Adam Stacoviak
Not cool.
Amy Dutton
I know, exactly. Right?
Jerod Santo
Part of me thinks that's not cool, but the other part of me thinks of that, like, isn't it online real estate? And isn't it smart to just buy a piece of property to hold it, because you think it's gonna go up in value and sell it later?
Adam Stacoviak
I say yes, so long as you're willing to sell it.
Jerod Santo
True.
Amy Dutton
Yeah. Well, he would reach out to those people...
Adam Stacoviak
If you're untouchable and you can't be reached, like Changelog.news, that's not cool.
Jerod Santo
That's the other thing, is -- well, I guess now we have tooling where you can be like comparable domain prices... But some people are unreasonable.
Amy Dutton
And so he would reach out to that person and be like "So I have this domain that's your name..."
Jerod Santo
"And I'm gonna hold it hostage..."
Amy Dutton
"I'll sell it to you."
Adam Stacoviak
In a way, he's reserved it on their behalf, and is willing to give it to the correct person, and there's a fee for that. I get that. I mean, that's an enterprising person.
Jerod Santo
It's shrewd, I think is the right word. It's shrewd, but not cool. Right? You can't really blame him, but you're kind of like "But I don't like you." \[laughs\]
Amy Dutton
Exactly.
Adam Stacoviak
"I'm not enjoying this process... But thank you."
Jerod Santo
Yeah, exactly. "You were smart, but I don't like you, okay?" So okay, it's about the squatter problem, not so much -- because it seems like the problem is "I have ideas, I don't actually build them, and now I've got domains." But really, the domain has to happen right away, because you don't want someone to steal that in case you do actually build it.
Amy Dutton
Right. Well, and naming stuff is hard... That was one of the things I said last night.
Jerod Santo
It is.
Adam Stacoviak
I've gotten to the point though where I'm like more no than yes. I like to simplify things. And so I can empathize with the buying. But then I'm like "Let me just wait to see if I really get motivated to do it, and then..." But there was really -- in my case with home lab, there was nothing that seemed so perfect, other than one other domain, which I did not buy yet, because I feel like just doesn't make any sense.
I was also hopeful that our friends at .tech would just reimburse me via sponsorship, because we've worked with them before, and I told them about that... So I'm sure if we did something --
Jerod Santo
\[00:58:05.10\] Did they say no?
Adam Stacoviak
No. They said "Next time we sponsor, we'll make sure it happens."
Jerod Santo
Oh, okay.
Adam Stacoviak
So they plan to come back. And I like .tech. It's a cool --
Jerod Santo
I think .tech is kind of cool.
Adam Stacoviak
There's neon.tech. That's one of our partners.
Amy Dutton
Yeah. It's a great product.
Adam Stacoviak
.tech does fit, in a lot of places. It's not a .com, obviously, and it's not a .io, which actually is not that good... There's certainly .net, which is not that good... I mean, in comparison, right?
Jerod Santo
.net versus .tech?
Adam Stacoviak
Well, .tech I think is as close as you could be to .dev, if the .dev is taken. It's still pretty on point.
Jerod Santo
.tech is?
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, I think so.
Jerod Santo
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
This is not an \[unintelligible 00:58:39.24\] by the way. These are my beliefs.
Jerod Santo
They saw us coming, Amy.
Amy Dutton
Google domain authority. I think .com weighs into it.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, for sure. I think .net is old school enough that it's probably better. Harder to get than .tech. .tech is pretty wide open, which is a good reason for it. This is also not an advertisement.
Adam Stacoviak
Since I'm mentioning sponsors, we do have another sponsor, Image Proxy, which actually is pretty cool, and they're a .net. It's an open source image processing that you self-host...
Amy Dutton
Oh, nice!
Adam Stacoviak
And they also have a paid version of it that does a lot of other cool stuff, like more cores, more CPUs, more images... So if you're imager, and you want to process a lot of images, like millions, they have a paid version of it. But they're imgproxy.net. And I just noticed that because I was emailing them earlier, and I was like "Okay, you're a .net. Not that it's bad, but like... .net isn't that cool."
Jerod Santo
Yeah.
Amy Dutton
So this sponsor - I'm just gonna --
Adam Stacoviak
Sure. One more layer? Go ahead.
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\] Help us out.
Amy Dutton
Yeah, I'm curious. So are they generating images, or just like resizing, or filtering existing images?
Adam Stacoviak
I have not dug into the tech yet. So I'm gonna talk to Sergei, who is the CTO, and once I have that conversation, I'll have more knowledge. But from what I understand, rather than using, say, ImageX I believe is the other one that's out there...
Amy Dutton
That one's old-school, too.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, they're a SaaS. They're an API. So you host it there, you make calls to their API. Whereas this - it's a Docker image, you self-host...
Amy Dutton
Okay.
Adam Stacoviak
They also -- I think they have a cloud version of it, potentially...
Jerod Santo
The fact that it's called Image Proxy makes me think that the images live elsewhere, and it's doing stuff on the fly. That's my guess.
Adam Stacoviak
You can put it on your own S3, your own R2, you host it yourself, and you make calls to it via the URL, and it just gives you the image size you want. It does all the resizing... I suppose just in time, and then there's probably caching layers in there, and stuff like that. So it's pretty interesting, but their model is open source.
Jerod Santo
That's cool.
Adam Stacoviak
What I love about their onramp - just to give them a little bit; I think it's super-cool, for like a strategy - is their product is fully open source. I think it's even permissively-licensed, like MIT; way open. And the same Docker image that you use is the same Docker image you would use as a paid version of it, except for now it's behind credentials. It's a proprietary Docker image when you go to a paid version of it, but it's the same core of that Docker image. So from a code standpoint, all you're changing is the Docker string, and some credentials to pull from Docker Hub... Which I thought was a pretty interesting onramp. Because from an implementation standpoint, you're not changing anything. You can go open source and fully use what it is, as anybody out there. But then if you have these specific larger, pro needs, you can go get Pro, and it's just a change with your Docker Hub. Nothing else. All of your code stays the same with how you use it.
Amy Dutton
It almost sounds like the Supabase model.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah.
Amy Dutton
Which, I really like that setup, too.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. And you can post it wherever you want. So you can on-prem, your own hosting, S3... Pick where you're putting it at. R2...
Jerod Santo
Let me segue back to the previous conversation, because we were talking about Image Proxy, a proxy for your image. Domain names are kind of a proxy for your idea, right? Like, you've got an idea, you give it a name, you hold on to the domain in the hopes that you'll implement it someday... And I've started to reach a point where I'm realizing in life -- well, first of all, I've always known, intellectually at least, that ideas are actually cheap, and execution is hard... But yet, we still hold on to the idea very tightly, because they're our babies, and we just want to hold on to them just in case...
Amy Dutton
\[01:02:10.29\] Right.
Jerod Santo
And I've started, personally, to get to a point where I've realized most of my ideas, I'm never going to do them, and so I'm just giving them away, in the hopes that somebody else does them. Have you ever considered this for some of your domains?
Amy Dutton
That's a good question.
Jerod Santo
You could even say, "I've got 150 domains..."
Amy Dutton
That's a great idea, actually.
Jerod Santo
"Each one has a good idea behind it, that's mine, but maybe you have a better idea. Here's a domain..." You have an audience, people who would be like "Here's domains to the person who will actually build the thing."
Amy Dutton
I actually love that idea.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. You can go put one of -- this email version of it, put it up there for like a grand and say, "Here's the idea I have...:
Jerod Santo
Well, that's her newest idea. She's not gonna do that one. \[laughter\]
Adam Stacoviak
That's the only one I know of.
Jerod Santo
"I'm talking about your old ideas."
Amy Dutton
Well, I could let go of that one, because it's the newest, if there's an older idea that I want to hang on to more. But you go online and you see all kinds of -- I mean, even GitHub repos of project ideas, or "You could build this, you could build that." That sounds like a great thing to give people; it's not only are you giving them the project idea, but you have the domain to go along with it...
Jerod Santo
Right. And you can sell it to them at a reasonable price...
Adam Stacoviak
You could even give it to them for free, for a percent. Like "Here's the idea for free. Go do it." Maybe there's an agreement, like OKX, and you get --
Amy Dutton
That's really interesting.
Jerod Santo
That'd be a good idea.
Adam Stacoviak
It's sort of like an investment.
Amy Dutton
So there are companies that kind of do stuff like that, actually, if you take that a step further.
Jerod Santo
Are there?
Amy Dutton
Yeah, there's a company called Fractal, and it's a venture capital company. And what they do is they go in and they do market research on all these different verticals, and then they will hire a CTO and a CEO, a pair, to run the company, and they give them a million dollars to go in and build that company. And they're trying to get whatever reinvestment they can, get customers within that first year; they have to go in and build everything... Which is kind of an interesting strategy.
Adam Stacoviak
That is interesting.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. I wonder if that would work.
Amy Dutton
But they've already done the market research on those verticals, and they have built-in coaching and tech support for the CTOs that are building things... And yeah. So you have a CEO and a CTO that might not be interested in that vertical at all, but that's what they've been assigned to. So it's like "Are you interested in the vertical, or are you interested in the job?" It's kind of interesting. But they've already done the research on that market piece to know "We think there's an app here that's very niche, that nobody else is building."
Jerod Santo
Yeah, that's a cool idea. Give the ideas away, or give them away with some sort of strings attached.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. I think in that case you get to give it away at no cost, so the startup cost is free... And the idea is sort of like maybe even backed. And maybe you're also an advisor, if it's a good enough pair. And then you're like "Hey, give me 5% of the equity."
Amy Dutton
So what's funny is I have a domain that this whole thing could live on...
Jerod Santo
Oh, really? That's amazing!
Amy Dutton
Yeah. Projectsfordev.com.
Jerod Santo
Projectsfordev.com.
Amy Dutton
Yeah.
Jerod Santo
You should do something with that. \[laughter\]
Adam Stacoviak
I believe we've just given you an idea for free. We will take 5% equity. Thank you very much.
Jerod Santo
You can have the idea...
Adam Stacoviak
And you've got the domain, so...
Jerod Santo
Here we go. If you're listening to this, and you think that's a good idea, we've got just the domain. You go build it, a place where we can post our free domain ideas and do this whole idea that just happened... And then maybe we'll hook you up with a domain to put the thing. \[laughter\]
Adam Stacoviak
Maybe. Jerod says maybe.
Jerod Santo
Well, I don't wanna offer Amy's domain up to somebody... It's not mine. \[laughter\]
Adam Stacoviak
Before you go, give Compressed a plug here at the end.
Amy Dutton
Yeah, so I co-host a podcast with James Q. Quick, Brad Garropy, and Becca, and it's called Compressed.fm. Our tagline is it's a little bit of web design and development with a little bit of zest. So if you listen to the intro, that is James rapping, which is kind of a fun story.
Adam Stacoviak
I love zest.
Jerod Santo
And it rhymes with Compressed. Is that on purpose?
Amy Dutton
\[01:05:53.11\] Yeah, well, it's part of the rap...
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\]
Adam Stacoviak
Jerod, you've never heard it, huh?
Jerod Santo
I haven't heard the rap.
Amy Dutton
This is funny, when we started this idea about the podcast, James is like "I'll rap an intro." And I didn't know James very well at the time, and I was just thinking "Oh, great..."
Adam Stacoviak
Great idea.
Amy Dutton
I know. "Can't wait to hear it!"
Adam Stacoviak
"Don't mess up!"
Amy Dutton
And then it was like \[unintelligible 01:06:09.07\]
Jerod Santo
So you started a podcast with a complete stranger?
Amy Dutton
He wasn't a complete stranger, but we didn't know each other very well at that point.
Adam Stacoviak
Perfect strangers.
Jerod Santo
Good show.
Amy Dutton
We'd been on a couple of live streams, and I reached out and I was like "Hey, I want to do a podcast."
Jerod Santo
Nice.
Amy Dutton
He was like -- he told me no.
Adam Stacoviak
"No." Just like that? Just no?
Amy Dutton
He's like "No, I don't have enough time. I can't do it." And then he came back and he's like "Well, let's talk about it.'"
Adam Stacoviak
"Okay, this makes sense. I've thought about it."
Jerod Santo
James and I are kindred spirits, because I have rapped on JS Party in the past...
Amy Dutton
Have you?
Jerod Santo
And I also wrote an entire rewrite of Snoop Dogg's - not Gin and Juice. What's the one "I woke up in the morning..."? Lodi Dodi.
Amy Dutton
Okay...
Jerod Santo
I completely rewrote Snoop Dogg's Lodi Dodi to tell a story about JS Podi... But I didn't publish it, because it's pretty bad. So we're on the same wavelength.
Amy Dutton
\[laughs\] That's awesome.
Adam Stacoviak
If you're a Plus Plus member, this might be in the outro.
Jerod Santo
Oh, good idea.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, let's put it there. A little bonus...
Jerod Santo
"If we get 10 new Plus Plus members, Jerod will--" No.
Adam Stacoviak
That's right.
Jerod Santo
I don't want to hold that idea hostage. Alright, we'll let you go. Amy has to go record another one.
Adam Stacoviak
Thanks, Amy. That's awesome.
Amy Dutton
Thank you. I appreciate you guys.
Adam Stacoviak
Alright, Andres... I met Andres in line when I was registering.
Jerod Santo
Okay, awesome.
Adam Stacoviak
And you were standing with Latisse. Was it Latisse?
Jerod Santo
Lettuce. He had lettuce with him.
Adam Stacoviak
No, no.
Andres Pineda
Who's that?
Adam Stacoviak
The girl you were standing with, in line. Y'all were talking...
Andres Pineda
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Latisse... Yeah, I think it is, yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah. And I don't think I've seen her since then. Maybe once.
Andres Pineda
Yeah, I saw here. She's part of the sponsorships on another table.
Adam Stacoviak
Oh, sweet. Okay. And so we were talking, and she was asking me a bunch of questions... He was telling me he's a listener, and I'm like "Well, we've gotta talk..."
Jerod Santo
Oh, nice.
Adam Stacoviak
And then we talked last night, we had a lot of fun...
Jerod Santo
At the piano bar?
Andres Pineda
At the piano bar, yeah.
Jerod Santo
Nice.
Andres Pineda
It was a great night. Where were you?
Jerod Santo
I was out till about 9:30, and then I went to bed.
Adam Stacoviak
That's right.
Jerod Santo
\[01:10:11.20\] So I was at the previous -- at the restaurant. But I got in late the previous night, woke up early... I was smoked. We did conversations all day yesterday... And I just needed some sleep last night. So I'm sorry I missed you.
Andres Pineda
Yeah, it was a good time.
Jerod Santo
I heard it was good time.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, that's why he's here now, to come back with a little rehash, to some degree.
Jerod Santo
What are you gonna rehash?
Adam Stacoviak
I'll lay it out, to some degree. We can go wherever, but...
Jerod Santo
Sure.
Adam Stacoviak
He's a listener. As you can tell, he recognized your face over mine. He saw me on TV and he was like "Who's that guy?"
Jerod Santo
Which is nice...
Adam Stacoviak
Apparently, I look different with no hat on, and no scruff...
Andres Pineda
Yeah, no beard.
Jerod Santo
No beard. He's all cleaned up.
Adam Stacoviak
I told him my age last night, and he's like "You don't look that age." So I was appreciating that...
Jerod Santo
That's a compliment...
Adam Stacoviak
And I said "You've got amazing hair. I wish I had your hair." He's like "My hair is my brand." And then you showed me your avatar... The silhouette.
Andres Pineda
Yeah. That's what they call the avatar... So it's a \[unintelligible 01:11:00.15\] So if you go anywhere near the Latino, Dominican Republic specifically, you will see that people will recognize that avatar. Let me see if I have one of those...
Adam Stacoviak
We'll put a photo of this in the show notes if we can.
Jerod Santo
Is this your online as well?
Andres Pineda
Yeah, so there's a whole story around that avatar. I don't think I have one right now...
Jerod Santo
He's searching his backpack for a sticker.
Andres Pineda
That's the avatar.
Jerod Santo
Oh, that's not even a sticker. That's a poker chip.
Andres Pineda
Well, I have stickers, there's coffee mugs...
Adam Stacoviak
I want a sticker!
Andres Pineda
I think I have one. I will find it.
Adam Stacoviak
If you have one, I want it.
Andres Pineda
Yeah.
Jerod Santo
It looks like you.
Andres Pineda
Yeah, it is me.
Adam Stacoviak
"Yeah, it is me." \[laughter\]
Andres Pineda
It was a picture \[unintelligible 01:11:37.27\]
Adam Stacoviak
A friend of his did this for him...
Jerod Santo
This is cool.
Adam Stacoviak
I'll tee it up, and you can share the story... But he's from the Dominican Republic, and he had to keep his hair short there. And as a revolt, he's grown out his beard and his hair, and it's become his brand. You can take it from there.
Andres Pineda
Yeah, exactly. So I was working at this company, and every time I had just a little more hair than what it was regular, they would politely suggest me to get a haircut. They were a country, it was different -- actually, also it was 10-15 years ago. So I quit the company and started working in a company, it was remote work... And since then, 2014, I haven't gone to a barbershop any longer. Since then, I moved to another country where this is not an issue. I don't think it is not even an issue anymore in the Dominican Republic, actually. It was just - I was at the bad place, bad time \[unintelligible 01:12:30.25\]
Jerod Santo
Right. Love it.
Adam Stacoviak
And now he's in Canada. Quebec.
Jerod Santo
Not currently. You're in Austin, Texas.
Adam Stacoviak
Well, yes, of course. Clearly. Thank you, Jerod, for the clarification.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. But you live in Montreal.
Andres Pineda
Yeah. And the reason -- living in Montreal was also, there's a story behind it. So - software developer; my first community, my first conference outside of the Dominican Republic. And I see this conference that's called PyCon. And it's a Python conference that happens all across the United States. By coincidence, that year, that conference was going to happen in Montreal for the first time outside the United States. So I did all the paperwork I needed, I asked for the visa, I went to this conference... And after the conference, I stayed at Montreal for 15 days. So I connected with the people, I visited the companies, I visited meetups... As usual, a meetup was already there... And I was trying to connect with the developer community in Montreal.
So during that time, I just called my wife and said "I've just found the place where we're gonna spend the rest of our life." Montreal is amazing. The people, the food, "the weather"... In quotes, because it's amazing, even the weather, because you have the four seasons, and there's something special in each season. In the Dominican Republic each season is the same. Regardless if it is summer, if it is winter or spring, it's gonna be warm.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. I'm with you, man, because I'm in Nebraska, and we have all four seasons... And each one is that season. To an extreme in certain cases, to where I'm like -- some seasons are longer than I want them to be, such as winter...
Andres Pineda
Exactly.
Jerod Santo
\[01:14:08.13\] But we get all four seasons, and there's something special about that.
Andres Pineda
It is. Something I learned once you move to Montreal - you cannot take things for granted.
Jerod Santo
Exactly.
Andres Pineda
In terms of weather, we Dominicans wake up in the morning of any day, any time of the year, and it's most likely going to be the same. In Montreal it's not like that, or in Nebraska. You have summer time, and you've gotta use those 12 weeks that you get of summer.
Jerod Santo
That's right. Yeah, exactly.
Andres Pineda
And you've gotta take everything that you can do with those four weeks.
Jerod Santo
Plus, it teaches you the value of, I guess, relativity... Because the same exact temperature feels different on the way in and on the way out of a season. Going into winter, 40 degrees Fahrenheit is feeling cold. You're like "Ah, I'm coming out of summer. It's fall. It's getting colder. I'm gonna bundle up." It gets colder, colder, colder. Coming out of winter, on the other side, here comes spring, 40 degrees Fahrenheit "Woo-hoo!"
Andres Pineda
It feels good.
Jerod Santo
Going outside shirtless. Like "This is amazing." \[laughs\]
Andres Pineda
You're happy.
Jerod Santo
It's the same temperature.
Andres Pineda
Yeah, the same temperature, but the fact that you are leaving winter behind - it gives you hope.
Jerod Santo
Yes. It teaches you perspective.
Andres Pineda
Exactly.
Jerod Santo
It does give you hope. Whereas on the way into it, you're like "Here we go..." \[laughs\]
Adam Stacoviak
For sure.
Jerod Santo
That's funny.
Andres Pineda
So yeah, I've been living there... And since then, I've been trying to connect with the different communities. I'm a software developer myself. At that time when I moved there, I was heavily on mobile, and so I was connecting with the iOS community, with the Android community, Swift community... And there was all there cross-platform technologies that I was using at the time... \[unintelligible 01:15:48.15\] which was created and built in Montreal. So right now I don't work directly with them, but I'm one of the maintainers. Because being in a place where there are many things happening compared with the place where I'm coming from, allows me to connect with way more people and increase my network. And I started learning what is the benefit of communities, and that's why I'm here today, and that's why I've been attending conferences every year since 2014, since my first time.
Jerod Santo
Okay. This seems like a great one to learn the benefit of a community.
Andres Pineda
It is.
Jerod Santo
It's very community-oriented. That's cool. I've never been to Montreal. Have you?
Adam Stacoviak
I have not.
Andres Pineda
You should come.
Jerod Santo
What's going on up there?
Andres Pineda
There's a lot of things happening, and in every season you will find something crazy or nice to do. In summers it's usually packed, because Montreal is a place for -- there's a lot of tourism. And if you go a little bit more East in Quebec City, which is the capital of Quebec, you will find even way more things to see. It's very multicultural, but overall Montreal feels like a small European city in the north.
Jerod Santo
Okay. Cool.
Andres Pineda
In terms of a food, if you're a foodie like me - I like food - you can think about any type of food, and you might be able to find it in Montreal.
Jerod Santo
Are there tech events, conferences up there?
Andres Pineda
Yeah, there's one happening soon, in February. I'm going to be participating there as a speaker. It's called ConFoo.
Jerod Santo
ConFoo. I've heard of ConFoo.
Andres Pineda
Yeah, it's happening in Montreal. It's a really great experience and conference, and the organizing, the speakers, everything... And it's a whole package of learning, and enjoying... It feels pretty much like this one. It will happen in February 19th, for four days, if I'm not mistaken, or three days.
Jerod Santo
Cool.
Andres Pineda
Different tracks, like this one.
Adam Stacoviak
We should get it going, man...
Andres Pineda
Yeah, you should come.
Jerod Santo
I think so. I've heard good things... ConFoo. Like foo bar.
Andres Pineda
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
Okay, I was thinking ConFu like KungFu.
Jerod Santo
Foo bar, that's why I spelled it out for you.
Adam Stacoviak
Okay, thank you.
Jerod Santo
\[01:17:59.00\] I think I submitted a talk to ConFoo years and years ago, and they either accepted it -- I can't remember the details, but I didn't end up going to the conference. But I was like this close to going. And ever since then, they've always emailed me the CFP every year. I've never actually submitted since then. But every year I'm like "ConFoo. It sounds cool." And I've never gone. So maybe we should get that going.
Andres Pineda
It's a big conference.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, I've heard about it. Yeah.
Andres Pineda
It started heavy on web, but it grew to a point that you can see everything right now there.
Jerod Santo
Cool. We'll think about that. So what kind of tech are you into? You've done a lot of different stuff, but what about today?
Andres Pineda
I call -- I say to myself I'm multidisciplinary. I love languages. I just love coding, \[unintelligible 01:18:38.05\] at the end of the day. We are here to give value, not to talk about the features. I saw that phrase yesterday in the keynote. So I started with .NET. I think it's my base, it's the one that I know the most, that I have used the most... And it's what I did for a few years. Recently frontend, using TypeScript, React, very heavy on the React... And the community, at that time when I had to switch from mobile into frontend, my first thing was "Let me get people in the community that speak this language." And I'm not talking about the language like TypeScript or JavaScript. I'm talking about the language of the ecosystem. It's true, people say "Once you learn one language, it's easy to learn the other." That's partially true, because you will learn the language, you will learn the features, but if you will not get immersed, you will not learn all the things that the language requires in order to work. And that's what I did.
So I started connecting with people in the community, that's how I started following \[unintelligible 01:19:36.28\] that's how I started following JS Party... I just learned this morning that JS Party is part of the Changelog organization. I am a follower of JS Party, because two years ago when I was looking to increase my JavaScript knowledge, that was one of the first podcasts that came to me...
Jerod Santo
Love it.
Andres Pineda
...because of people mentioning it.
Jerod Santo
Right. I love that.
Andres Pineda
So these days I'm basically mostly doing backend, back to .NET, doing backend, microservices, Docker, Kubernetes on top of GCP...
Jerod Santo
All the things, man.
Andres Pineda
All the things. And \[unintelligible 01:20:09.25\] Uno platform. I mentioned this project is based in Montreal, and --
Jerod Santo
That's Uno.
Andres Pineda
Uno, yeah.
Jerod Santo
I've heard of this. Yeah, I've heard of this.
Andres Pineda
It's a really nice project. And basically, what it wants is using a single set of tools, SAML for the UI and C\#, or you can do all C\#, you can build applications for all the different platforms. This is something that we have been looking for years; Java tried, Electron tried, .NET with \[unintelligible 01:20:38.00\]
Adam Stacoviak
What about Tauri?
Andres Pineda
We have tried many times, and this one is not different than the -- it's different than the others in some sense, but it's looking the same output. One thing that I enjoy, because I'm very heavy as well into learning WebAssembly, is the WebAssembly capabilities that this platform can provide. So I'm there, collaborating as an open source contributor.
Jerod Santo
Open source is art...
Andres Pineda
Open source is art. It has shown to be the right way.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. That reminds me of the quote of the week that I put in Changelog News yesterday morning... So this comes from Tom Willmot. I actually saw it on Matt Mullenweg's blog... And he says "Proprietary software is like creating art which no one can see. Open source elevates software engineering to a collaborative art form. Code is poetry."
Andres Pineda
And poetry is art.
Adam Stacoviak
That's right.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. That's on point, right?
Andres Pineda
So open source is art.
Jerod Santo
I love that quote. "Open source elevates software engineering to a collaborative art form."
Andres Pineda
\[01:21:38.17\] It is. And one of the things that I love about open source is that it enables developers to learn from others. It's not only a tool that you can use, and you're gonna use it in your project. Whenever you have the opportunity to learn from others it's a good opportunity for growing. And open source opened that. With open source you are able -- for example Submarine, when it started, used to be closed source. And if you had any problem, you needed to open a ticket. It became open source, and every time I had a problem, I would just go to github.com/submarine, I will go to the code and I will investigate and find - probably not find a way to fix it, but find a workaround the problem. And even suggest fixes. That's important, that not everything relies on the person that creates the project. Once it is open source, you have a whole community backing you off, to help you, to guide you, and do suggestions that can make the progress succeed even more.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. Whenever I think of code as art, I think of Why The Lucky Stiff. Have you ever heard of Why The Lucky Stiff?
Andres Pineda
No. Tell me about it.
Jerod Santo
Okay, so he's a guy -- or he was a guy...
Adam Stacoviak
Still a guy.
Jerod Santo
He's off the internet now. Is he still around?
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, I think he's just not on the internet, yeah.
Jerod Santo
Alright. So he was in the Ruby community, which is one of my earlier programming languages, was Ruby... And he was very good at being -- he's an artist, with code. And he wrote a book called "Wise, poignant guide to Ruby", which was a story of like two animals he created, characters, one teaching the other Ruby... And it was just a very enjoyable way. He's teaching you a programming language while you're reading the story about these two characters. Just pure art, right?
Adam Stacoviak
Pure art. Yeah, for sure.
Jerod Santo
And he ended up burning out. It's a sad story. He left the programming community burned out. He's living in the real world now. Teaching still, I think, last time I heard of him... But he had all of his code open source, and I was pretty young in my Ruby roots, ad I had read his Poignant Guide, and I had realized that he created his own web server... Because back then everybody was using Webrick for dev, and then - what was Zed Shaw's thing for prod?
Adam Stacoviak
I forget.
Jerod Santo
Zed Shaw had more of a battle-hardened -- Webrick was for...
Adam Stacoviak
I would know it as soon as I heard it.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, anyways. \[unintelligible 01:23:55.20\] had his own web server that he wrote... And I remember going to his open source code, and reading his code... And this guy coded as art. And Ruby is a great language for that, because he would invent ways of doing things where you're like "This would never pass code review. Those would never go into an enterprise production rollout." But it's beautiful, and weird, and I learned so much about the Ruby programming language by reading his code, because he was doing stuff that I didn't know was possible. And that's what I think of when I think of open source as art. It's like, I learned reading his stuff, and if that was closed or never left his hard drive, the world would have missed something that it got for free.
Andres Pineda
Exactly.
Jerod Santo
So cool.
Andres Pineda
Exactly. Exactly. And just recently, a friend of mine had a problem with a proprietary software. And he asked me for help, and there was no much that we can do other than just open a ticket and wait for the person to find a solution.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, exactly.
Andres Pineda
And if it was open source, you could probably -- not even fix it, but as I say, ask the owner of the project, of the product, "If you want to charge, it's okay." In open source you can get money even charging this amount; there are ways to monetize open source. Red Hat showed that is possible. But in this case, my friend - he got just a library dll that he put in his project \[unintelligible 01:25:16.26\] and he's trying to make it work... And it's not working. It's not giving him any hints or insights as to what's going on. Since it is closed source, there's no way for him other than just open a ticket.
Adam Stacoviak
Truth. It goes from an I to a we. Right?
Jerod Santo
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
Which is cool. Because now it's not me, it's us. And that's beautiful. Better together.
Jerod Santo
That's right.
Andres Pineda
There are many projects out there that -- it started as a pet project for somebody, and right now it's a product that is holding many big projects out there.
Jerod Santo
Yeah.
Adam Stacoviak
I often try to wander the world in this moment --
Jerod Santo
Mongrel.
Adam Stacoviak
\[01:25:53.15\] Was it Mongrel?
Jerod Santo
Mongrel.
Adam Stacoviak
You're right, it was Mongrel.
Jerod Santo
It came back to me. Keep going. That's Zed Shaw's program, Mongrel. Go ahead.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, that was very popular.
Jerod Santo
And then Mongrel 2... Anyways, keep going.
Adam Stacoviak
We've \[unintelligible 01:26:00.24\] about that in the past, many years ago...
Jerod Santo
Yeah. I knew it'd come back. Go ahead.
Adam Stacoviak
I just think about what would the world be like in this moment - we obviously wouldn't be talking probably - if open source was not a thing. If somebody never said "This should be shared. We should collaborate. This needs to be free." Not just free as in monetary freedom, but like the freedom of enjoyment, of collaboration, of where it can go, how it can be used etc. What would the world be like if open source was never open source?
Andres Pineda
That's a good question. And I feel that all the improvement that we have done in every piece of technology so far, we wouldn't be able to be that far.
Jerod Santo
Yeah.
Andres Pineda
Just that. I mean, I've been coding or in the industry for almost 20 years, and when I started, open source was not a thing. Even though Linux has been there, it was open source, but the tooling, and the collaboration was not there yet. And it was because of the internet. The internet was not what we have right now. And I remember trying to find online tooling to do something, and you would find a dll, or you would find a package already of the library. And even though that could solve one of my problems, it didn't solve it in the right way... Because now you're trusting someone with a library that you don't know what's going on inside there. Would you do that in one of your projects in your company? I guess no.
I guess open source opened that trust between creators and the people that are users; it can be companies, it can be startups, and anyone, to - "You can see what we're doing, and you can be part of this at any time." And without that, I don't feel that we would have been able to go that far. Because otherwise we'd be relying only on big companies to do those things that we have right now, "for free", in quotes. You cannot see, it is a podcast.
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\] He put quotes up when he said that.
Andres Pineda
Yeah.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, audio-only... Well, Andres, thanks so much for talking to us today. Anything else you want to talk about before we let you go?
Andres Pineda
Yeah - well, before, there was a conversation that we had last night, and we talked about the stickers... And we \[unintelligible 01:28:18.28\] and why it's important. So if you go to the Dominican Republic and in the tech you say Pinedax, Pinedax became an icon that people use to talk when they want to talk about when they want to improve, when they want to be better. It all started - my last name is Pineda, without the x at the end. It all started in the communities, every people that would participate and make others to be better by doing presentations, by helping others in the forums, on Facebook, you would get the x. That x means that you escalated into a level that you're being helpful for the community. It was just a way to identify people that are collaborating and making the community even better.
\[01:29:08.27\] So I got my x, because I started doing meetups, I started helping, mentoring... Even though I've really \[unintelligible 01:29:14.29\] a stage of my learning. Because when I joined the community, I was not the person that could be here talking today.
Jerod Santo
Sure.
Andres Pineda
I couldn't see a microphone, I couldn't be in front of people. I was scared. But the community taught me that. So I've found that I could also help others to overcome the fear of talking... Because there's a lot of smart people out there that just feel fear of talking, of being in front of people.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Andres Pineda
So I got my x...
Jerod Santo
That's cool.
Andres Pineda
It's called Pinedax. And right now Pinedax has become that person, that icon that people talks, that people say "I would like to be like that." Not like me, because I'm just a person, but like what Pinedax represents. And I'm Happy to be the person behind the icon. I will get you the stickers. And I'll continue making the Dominican Republic community grow; I help even remote, and I travel at least twice a year for conferences over there.
Jerod Santo
That's really cool.
Adam Stacoviak
Yeah, man. I heard that story. I was loving it.
Jerod Santo
You've gotta come say that on a show.
Adam Stacoviak
You've gotta come talk.
Jerod Santo
So there's stickers... Is there a website? Is there anything else that's formalizing this concept?
Andres Pineda
I only have a Twitter handle, and it's @pinedax\_dev. Usually this is Spanish, because this is man for Spanish and Latin American communities.
Jerod Santo
Cool.
Adam Stacoviak
So follow that. We'll put it in the show notes.
Jerod Santo
Go get your x.
Andres Pineda
That's right.
Jerod Santo
Love it.
Adam Stacoviak
Thanks, Andres.
Jerod Santo
Yeah. Thank you.
Adam Stacoviak
We appreciate you.
Andres Pineda
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've been a listener since long. Listener, and I have -- you are the only show that I have on YouTube.
Jerod Santo
Oh, wow.
Adam Stacoviak
That's right.
Andres Pineda
I don't mix entertainment with learning. I usually have two different accounts.
Jerod Santo
Keep them separate.
Andres Pineda
Keep it separate, right?
Jerod Santo
That's right.
Andres Pineda
But you're the only ones that -- sometimes I'm looking for something Friday night, and you show up with one of the clips...
Jerod Santo
Love it.
Andres Pineda
That's why your face was familiar.
Adam Stacoviak
He watches and he's like "I can't watch this on Saturday night, or Friday night. I've gotta watch this when it makes sense."
Jerod Santo
\[laughs\]
Adam Stacoviak
He will watch it, but he wants to go and like listen to the full-length show, because it teases him.
Andres Pineda
It's a tease.
Jerod Santo
It is a tease.
Andres Pineda
And it's a good one, because it brings the expectations that I want to hear more.
Jerod Santo
That's the entire point. Thank you.
Adam Stacoviak
Then he queues it up for Monday.
Jerod Santo
There you go. Queue it up. I love that you listen, that you enjoy our clips... I love that you've found JS Party and didn't realize that was also us...
Andres Pineda
Yeah. Only this morning.
Jerod Santo
Okay. Well, happy to connect those dots. Cool.
Adam Stacoviak
Thank you.
Jerod Santo
Yeah, man. We appreciate it.
Andres Pineda
Thank you. Bye.
Jerod Santo
Bye.
